ਫਰਮਾ ਗੱਲ-ਬਾਤ:ਗਿਆਨਸੰਦੂਕ ਜੀਵਨੀ/doc

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tari(adminstrtor on punjabi)

ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is very much a punjabi word. please do not reverse this change. you can discuss if you like --Guglani (talk) ੦੬:੫੮, ੧੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ is purely Punjabi word to use and better than ਦਿਹਾਂਤ or ਮੌਤ in the way to express incident. My personal view abt ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is that it is basically Hindi word but also being used in Punjabi language. Majority of community uses the word ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ instead of ਦਿਹਾਂਤ or ਮੌਤ, So we can use the word ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ in infobox here if you guys think it right... --ਸੰਧੂ | kJ (talk) ੧੪:੦੪, ੧੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Kooljeet ji, SSA . Your suggestion for an alternative word of respect for death is for resolving some sort of conflict. But basically please understand root word ਦੇਹ very much exists in punjabi since time of Shaikh Farid a punjabi , and a well known punjabi verse writer. From ਦੇਹ , a pure punjabi word ,punjabi word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ exists, meaning end of life or death in this body form,It is well known in punjabi. Hindi word is देहांत & not दिहांत so please note this distiction. Let us not dispute over basics or fundamentals of word formation in punjabi & declare, some word not being punjabi simply because of personal feeling .My further submission is even when a word has been digested in punjabi from a foreign language then it is a punjabi word .--Guglani (talk) ੦੮:੫੫, ੨੧ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Guglani, leave all, just tell me what ਮੌਤ lacks? It's mostly used and even known to non-educated Punjabis and also neutral. And may be you noted that ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is Hindi. It's existence in Punjabi just due to the non-Punjabi or urban journalists. And, changing spellings of देहांत to ਦਿਹਾਂਤ (if not using ਲਾਂ) doesn't mean that it is Punjabi. We are on the Punjabi wiki and must develope it and provide pure Punjabi to readers even we should make people giving example of the wiki in case of any impurity in Punjabi. And if you are don't know Punjabi in such deeper level please accept from other and for your work's quality: If an admin reverts any of your edits you should not revert it back without any discussion so please set the template text back to ਮੌਤ (may I'll do that) please have proper discussion before a controversial change, never try to make the wiki a battlefield. Actually, why controversial it's nothing controversial in it; simple, ਮੌਤ is mostly used and even known to the most non-educated Punjabi person. We must not try to fetch more words from the other languages as it has been already compeleted for Punjabi and Punjabi is a developed lang. not newly create and under-development. Thanks Kooljeet for your views! --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੧:੩੩, ੨੧ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Tari Buttar, you made first reverting action when I edited word ਮੌਤ with ਦਿਹਾਂਤ saying in edit summary that ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is non-punjabi, and did not record any thing on talk pages. I reverted your action saying on talk page that ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is very much a Punjabi word and do not make any reverting further , rather discuss if you like. I proved it being a Punjabi word in various talk pages, you started counting popularity and , then you made second reverting on another pretext that ਮੌਤ is preferable than ਦਿਹਾਂਤ ।This is unfair on your part to resort to reverting on one pretext or the other and changing pretexts to suit your action.. So I have reverted back your second reverting action. Do not resort to reverting again.

Further,ਮੌਤ means end of life in all aspects, whereas in belief system of Punjabi speaking community only body has an end of life and soul continues to live and ਦਿਹਾਂਤ means end of life in body of a person. Punjabi wiki is for Punjabi speaking people, ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is most appropriate word to be used for all people known in literature and it is neutrally and equally applied to all cases where this template is used in wiki. So its being not a neutral word is beyond any question. Also this word is known to all whether they are less or more educated , as proof of word ਦੇਹ being used in Punjabi since old times is evident from very old Punjabi verse writer, baba farid,s slok quote ”Budha hoa sheikh farid ,Kamban lagi deh” or another quote”farida umar suhavrhi sang suvannarhI deh” .you are only telling popularity of word ਮੌਤ and ਦਿਹਾਂਤ by counting on google pages which does not explain that ਮੌਤ is most suitable for template in Punjabi wiki and none other.--Guglani (talk) ੧੭:੩੧, ੨੧ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Please take care mr Guglani ji that belief systems don't matter in the wiki because we use neutral point when we write, so the beliefs of each of us don't matter we write like if anybody who follows any belief will read the text we enter, so please I supporting the use for ਮੌਤ word. --ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ (talk) ੧੮:੪੮, ੨੧ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਾਰੀ[ਸੋਧੋ]

Thanks ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ for your participation and agree with your point on belief system.

Guglani, sorry to see you not behaving like a wikipedian. I better requested you to have proper discussion before the change again and as the discussion is being taking place, why you keep making the controversial change again and again (Please note I only reverted an admins action again as the discussion is open). Sorry, Guglani but an action like this, is not expected from an administrator. Please don't make the wiki a battlefield.

Baba Farid used ਦੇਹ not ਦਿਹਾਂਤ and Gurbani has lots words that are not used in common life for example it has the word ਛਨਿਛਰਵਾਰ for saturday but ਸ਼ਨੀਵਾਰ is mostly used and sometimes ਸ਼ਨਿੱਚਰਵਾਰ, it has ਵਿਚਿ but ਵਿਚ is used. Quoting from an old composition can prove how old a particular word is but not that it's common in use and an important thing I want to remind you (although I'm not entirely rely on a google search) that using google search for deciding a word belongs to which lang. by the quantity it found in, is your idea (please don't try to make others beleive that the idea is originally belongs to TariButtar) that you expressed here saying, "put single word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ in google and see for yourself in how many places in punjabi it is used."; and when I tried to make you understand (on the same page) using the same method you use, saying, "when you search for ਦਿਹਾਂਤ you get about 30,500 results but when you search for देहांत, you get 114,000 results.", then why you change your mind immigately? Also, later elsewhere, added that making a google search for ਮੌਤ gives you about 945,0000 results. Please be neutral.

Why we make a discussion? Just to have the community's views, what the community thought about. Now, the discussion is better open and users saying that they support the word ਮੌਤ then why you're not caring the community and keep following your personal views/opinion? May be, because you've the administrator's right. I also support the word ਮੌਤ, being neutral, short and moreover, mostly used and understood. Please be a neutral as every wikipedian must follow the fundamental at first. Wiki is not to apply the belief system, it's for the Punjabi language that is not bond with any particular belief system, caste or religion. Thanks. --tari Buttar (talk) ੦੨:੨੭, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

While looking more deeply into the matter according to this dictionary ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is a Punjabi word but as per TariButtar and ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ we can't take any religion's side in the Wikipedia. ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ according to the dictionary and Koljeet is the best but again I agree with TariButtar that this word is too long to be used here. The dictionary however also registers an entry containing ਮੌਤ making it the perfect neutral, short and well known Punjabi word for "Death". Please always make use of words that your readers will be familiar with. I hope this brang some understanding to the dispute. >>Zarienah (talk) ੦੯:੧੩, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Zarienah, thanks for being a part of the discussion. I wanna say that if a Punjabi dictionary is defining ਦਿਹਾਂਤ, it doesn't mean that it's a Punjabi word as history details about the word like etymology are not provided. The dictionaries often not provide such details. The large dictionaries, like the University dictionary, just try to provide meaning of every word used in Punjabi whether it's from other lang. and used rarely/occasionaly. In such large dictionaries, you'll find many new words that you never heard before. Anyway, Guglani himself objected the dictionary not to be perfect (check the community portal). Thanks for your views. --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੦:੩੦, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
As of ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ, I've no objection if the community support it to be used instead. It's is Punjabi word and people, who feel that ਮੌਤ is straight and rough (specially, when using for a saint or other highly regarded one), often found it to be soft and is also commonly used. And, as of the shortness of ਮੌਤ, it's its side goodness. We are not supporting it, only because it's short. I've no objection if the community pass ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ. I think it's not too long to be declined but respect the community's decision. And Guglani should answer, "why not ਮੌਤ?" as by his arguments, I think, his intention is to decline ਮੌਤ rather than supporting ਦਿਹਾਂਤ. Anyway, he knows the truth. Please ask others to give their views here. --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੧:੧੨, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Dear ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ, Zairian, -tari Buttar, Kooljeet,Thanks everyone for participating in discussion. Each one of you, after all deliberations till now , as I understand , agrees that ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is a Punjabi word beyond any doubt.TariButter is an exception as per his latest noting on this.Also tari is repeatedly misquoting my reference of mistakes in punjabi dictionary ,refer quote from my talk on community portal original quote " ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਯੂਨਿਵਰਸਿਟੀ ਦੀ ਡਿਕਸ਼ਨਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਇਸ ਤਰਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਈ ਗਲਤੀਆਂ ਹਨ ਇਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਹਰ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਲਈ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਆਰੀ ਮੰਨਣਾ ਠੀਕ ਨਹੀਂ।" unquote. Second quote " Use of Punjabi dictionaries of Punjabi University in general and reference of adak use for words ਵਿੱਚ & ਕੁੱਝ refer also your views on your userpageuse of ਵਿੱਚ , ਕੁੱਝ : Dictionary of Punjabi in general no doubt is very good source and can be considered a standard work when no parallel work of that goodness available. But it has many errors as I have told before, I never said it is unreliable as quoted by taributter (tari,s quote elsewhere is referred here) and now take specially case of ਕੁਝ,both English to Punjabi and Punjabi to English do not use adak and in case of ਵਿੱਚ English to Punjabi uses adak whereas in gurmukhi to English adak is not used" unquote.
Next comes choice for use of one word , out of ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ,ਦਿਹਾਂਤ ,ਮੌਤ , in Template. ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ is not a good choice, being too long and some other reasons like it being associated to one name ਅਕਾਲ in it belonging to a particular religion, I support not using it. Between remaining ਦਿਹਾਂਤ & ਮੌਤ, both are neutral words , they are not connected with any religion. Only one must pay attention to sense of use of each word . ਮੌਤ is a negative word. even if we call it a slang word it would not be untrue. In Punjabi speaking community this word is not used even for their own elders in a family. Punjabi community belonging to any religion, they would not use ਮੌਤ word for their elders or any one of their knowns.They will speak an alternative word to describe death of a person.
Choice thus left is for use of word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ ।Which is neutral and used by community members whether they belong to any religion or caste system. It is positive word meaning death & end of life in body form. It is neither negative nor slang and used in day to day life for all known ones without an ill fealing against anyone. It is sufficiently short , neutral and appropriate to be used in template for everyone for whom we want to use template in wiki, indiscriminately.
And now something for belief system which I spoke earlier (points raised by ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ) :Punjabi wiki is mostly to be read by Punjabi speaking community .English wiki policies are decided by English speaking community according to their social , cultural or heritage needs and are meant for them. These cannot be directly applied on Punjabi wiki , which has to have its own policies based on its social, cultural, heritage, traditions and needs of the community. To this I call in one word as belief system of community.So I make it clear that it is not belief system or culture of a particular religion which I meant when I talked of belief system . It is all these factors for the entire community belonging to any religion. Belief system word is meant as system of cultural & social customs , traditions, of the community. Any lanuageWiki policies should not go against those systems , taking into account majority of the community. To make it clear, for example, something which is not obscene and vulgar in English community , may be very much obscene ,vulgar and slang in Punjabi speaking community. English wiki policies have emerged over a long span of time. Punjabi wiki has to grow and develop its policies over a span of time. It is not job of one particular user or administrator. No. of contributing users should grow in it and they should develop policies for it. That is what I interpret , as belief system ,which I spoke earlier about and not the belief system of a particular religion as you have understood. In nutshell , I can say,I am not inclined to use word ਮੌਤ in template , this being a negative word rather strongly support use of ਦਿਹਾਂਤ. --Guglani (talk) ੧੭:੦੬, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
be it ਦਿਹਾਂਤ or ਮੌਤ: the word "Death" is a negetive word, no matter how may synonms, it will be a negative word. As per ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ & TariButtar, and my Punjabi experience ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is not a familiar Punjabi word and that ਮੌਤ is the best, most understood, and simple word to use. as for the ਅਕਾਲ ਚਲਾਣਾ I do agree that is is too long. >>Zarienah (talk) ੧੭:੩੩, ੨੨ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਾਰੀ ੨[ਸੋਧੋ]

Guglani, if you're still ignoring the community being fixed with your personal opinion saying people not use ਮੌਤ when talking about their related ones, then I must say you're wrong and more importantly wanna point out that if some people not use ਮੌਤ then they use simply ਚੜ੍ਹਾਈ or ਚਲਾਣਾ never ਦਿਹਾਂਤ. In other words, if some people not use ਮੌਤ it doesn't mean that they use ਦਿਹਾਂਤ and even know it. The fact is that the community is not familiar with it just because it not Punjabi. I agree with Zarienah that death is always a negative word anyway. Zarienah please don't mind (I've not such intention), you must say, ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is not familiar in Punjabi." instead of, "ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is not a familiar Punjabi word" that sometimes states that you think it to be of Punjabi origin that it's not. But please don't get it personally that I'm trying to teach you how to say.

Guglani, as per your point that the English wiki and its policies etc. are set up according to the English culture, heritage etc., it seems you've not examined the wiki. It's called "a free encyclopedia" and an encyclopedia is never bond with or belong to a particular culture, heritage or tradition and specially a free one. And as of Punjabi language, it's also not bond with any particular religion or caste; it is for all the Punjabi Hindus, Jainis and of course the Muslims and Sikhs. All of them has great heritage bond with Punjabi. By following which you'll standardize the wiki? That's why the fundamental of the wiki is neutrality. If Punjabi is bond with such number of religions etc. How you call an international language wiki to be standardize according to a particular religion, culture, heritage or tradition etc.? Wiki is although can be in a regional language but it's always has to be neutral. Although, your articles not support neutrality and also written using the wiki like a newspaper of magazine. Please be a wikipedian not a journalist. You need to learn a lot about wikipedia. Anyway that's not the topic. Please don't try to generate a new Punjabi by mixing new words of other languages', just relying on your personal opinion and please don't try to force the community to be agree with you, respect their views. You should support and respect the purity of Punjabi and must not mix non-Punjabi words with it. --tari Buttar (talk) ੦੪:੧੫, ੨੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

I found the word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ in the dictionary so, I honestly don't know I was just addressing the fact that I've never seen this word before. and Since the community has viewed ਮੌਤ as the correct word, there is nowhere else to take this discussion. >>Zarienah (talk) ੦੭:੫੯, ੨੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you that as the community approving the word ਮੌਤ , the discussion should be closed. Please ask others to the same express here. What you say guys? Should we close the discussion now, resulting on the use of ਮੌਤ? --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੭:੪੮, ੨੩ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
TariButter Ji,You have heavily depended upon population of word ਮੌਤ in google search of documents against population of ਦਿਹਾਂਤ on same concluding that ਮੌਤ is well known and ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is not known. Your count is 9,45,000 vs 30,500 .In one breath you believe method for proving more commonality of ਮੌਤ in another you disbelieve the same method and say ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is not known to people and it is non Punjabi word . You also did not pay any attention to usage of each word which is very obvious from the results and has been explained by me earlier.ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is for renowned or known persons & elders in family ,whereas ਮੌਤ is rude or slang word(you have yourself told earlier it is rough word)and generally used for accidental deaths murders etc and for unknowns. Since news items are more about accidental deaths , murders and negative killings, than about renowned persons , that is why you see more population of word ਮੌਤ in google search documents/sites. So this does not go in proving that word ਮੌਤ is more common. It is appropriate use of word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ in template which is meant for Wikipedia and there only renowned personalities will be described irrespective of t which religion they belong. So usage is thus neutral and indiscriminate. I make usage more clear by giving example of use of 2nd person singular noun in Punjabi.In English only one pronoun is for you, whereas in Punjabi there are two such pronouns ਤੂੰ & ਤੁਸੀਂ, this is similar in German , there are two pronouns ‘du ‘ & ‘Sie’. ਤੂੰ(toon) is used for a in formal address to known second person singular showing him more familiarity and nearness whereas ਤੁਸੀਂ (tusien) is used for more regard and address with formality, to an unknown person. English “How are you?” for both cases. Punjabi “ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੀ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ?” and “ ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਕੀ ਹਾਲ ਹੈ?”use of two words in declension form for same second person singular pronouns. Template is meant for renowned persons so you must use ਦਿਹਾਂਤ here, both these examples have nothing to do with religion of persons , it is merely , social or cultural difference in English and Punjabi that we use two words each against single English words’ you ‘or ‘death’ .

Taributter ji,you have blatantly denied following proofs put forward by me to prove ਦਿਹਾਂਤ is a Punjabi word:
Blattantly denied ਦੇਹ as root word for ਦਿਹਾਂਤ saying two have no connection , calling yourself a Punjabi expert and calling others like your level of punjabi ,knowing fully well etymology of word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ and further discarded word ਦੇਹ saying it might be prevalent in old religious punjabi texts,wheras I quoted verse of Shaikh Farid who is well known one of the earliest verse writers known as sufi mohammaden poet in both east and west Punjab and whose verses are popular till toady amongst literate and illiterate Punjabis.
Mis quoted my sayings about Punjabi University dictionary to be unreliable ,wheras I am saying different thing see above quotes by me about dictionary.Presence of word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ in dictionary , you discard saying added by pro hindi people ,.
As already told you have already discarded proof of 30500 no. of occurances in google search documents written in Punjabi with word ਦਿਹਾਂਤ.
You have tried to force your changes by giving title to your talk on this as” administrative action revert “You used revert without recording anything on talk pages and only using edit summary to describe your changes as if it is the final word, whereas reverting is a recognized user’s tool. ,
While talks are developing you changed pretext from non-punjabi word as originally thought as reason for reverting to preference for use of word ਮੌਤ using number logic of Google search. You have even mixed up words like religion in what I have said about Wikipedia and cultural and social traditions of a community. In this manner you are misguiding and misleading insignificant no. of Punjabi wikipedians who are present in Punjabi wiki and are taking part in talk. Your manner is not as per the five Pillars of Wikipedia.
We are required to have discussion to frame Punjabi wiki guidelines and policies. It is not one user or one administrator task. In this manner of discussions how we can arrive at these policies for interest and growth of Punjabi wiki?
Further ( I am not making discussion long in this template page to answer points raised by tariButter about my articles), but question is there is no Punjabi wiki news presently existing. Minimum five active users can start it. In that situation , where items of Punjabi wiki news stature be stored?
Under above considerations if any one forces me to accept ਮੌਤ word in template, I would only agree to differ and record my difference in template itself along with word ਮੌਤ, since any discussion has to come to an end. Further I am too busy in coming 5 days and may not be disturbed because of this.--Guglani (talk) ੦੯:੩੯, ੨੪ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Look even Hindi language wikipedia never use देहांत, they are use मृत्यु, Punjabi should use ਮੌਤ (I am saying this while make refrencing to the justifications of the community). Most of the community has had a part in this dicussing and all want for ਮੌਤ to be used. Please end off and close this discussion. --ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ (talk) ੧੩:੧੪, ੨੫ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

ਜਾਰੀ ੩[ਸੋਧੋ]

Thanks ਰਾਜੇਨ੍ਦ੍ਰ ਸਿੰਘ for this solid point and also make your view about wheater the discussion is closed? Thanks! --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੩:੩੩, ੨੫ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)

Speedy Close - all the articles that use this template are missing their death dates, and once more the community has spoken, so there is nowhere else to take this discussion. Thanks >>Zarienah (talk) ੧੦:੨੦, ੨੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
and Guglani we can get a Punjabi wiki news started, if I can I will surely help create a new wiki for Punjabi news, for now you should not create newspaper articles in the Wikipedia because it is a neutral encyclopaedia. You can go to the incubator to start creating a new Punjabi wikinews, and I think you will be the most valuable contributer to the wikinews. >>Zarienah (talk) ੧੦:੩੧, ੨੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)
Yes Guglani that may better suit your style of writing but I must say wikinews also 'll be in Punjabi and would have a community to discuss and decided.

Closed - As the user stated; the discussion is closed resulting with the word ਮੌਤ. I'm gonna revert the changes to ਮੌਤ, thanks community for your views. --tari Buttar (talk) ੧੪:੧੦, ੨੬ ਸਿਤੰਬਰ ੨੦੧੨ (UTC)